Real Talk: What Does Honouring Provenance Really Look Like?

Geetie Singh-Watson, The Bull Inn: I am Geetie Singh-Watson. Owner, founder of this place, The Bull Inn in Totnes. This is my fourth organic pub. Amazing. My first inn, and the first one I opened was in 1998. 

Juliane Caillouette Noble, The Sustainable Restaurant Association: Wow. You've been in the game a very long time and you've got a lot to share from your experience in this. Talk to me a little bit about your kind of commitment to an organic pub and, you know, what that means to you. 

Geetie: For me, opening a business and not really considering the ethics behind every action you were taking... it just wasn't something I was interested in. The way I think about business is almost as impactful as government. Actually, I think more impactful than government, because business tends to influence government so much. 

Juliane: Absolutely. It changes their behaviour. 

Geetie: So, it's up to business to act with some kind of moral compass. Right? So when I first opened my very first pub, I was very clear that I wanted to make sure that everything I was buying, everything we were using, was trying to have as positive an effect on society, on the environment, as we possibly could — rather than the places I'd been working in previously. I mean, all my years in catering was where I learned how to run a business — by watching them do it wrong. 

You know, I worked in restaurants where they were proud of selling Italian eggs. And I used to just look at them and think, what? Italian eggs on this menu? 

And it was like, what’s wrong with nutrition, really? That much difference? Or lamb from New Zealand. And you think, why? Why do that — to the planet, to our science, to our society, to our culture — by not supporting what's existing here? 

And it's not protectionism. It's actually thinking about the impact you're having on society. 

Juliane: Well, extrapolating that out a little bit, what's lost in our communities and in our culture when we are focused on global food systems instead of local ones? 

Geetie: You know, I have a real passion for farming, and it kind of comes from my upbringing. I grew up in a commune in Herefordshire, and my mum always used to say to me — despite the fact that we were surrounded by very conventional farmers — she would say, “They’re the stewards of our land. And we should be really respectful to them and work with them to ensure that our land is managed well.” 

Yeah, so I've always felt like that. And I've always felt that there's this beautiful culture that's created around it — like the harvest festivals, where we're properly celebrating what's coming out of our fields, which I think are really important rituals. 

And those small, independent farms — mixed farming — where they were producing chickens, cows, vegetables... soft fruit. And they were really specialist growers with great skill. 

That's real mastery and purpose for those individuals producing that food. And then there's a real connection to what you're seeing happening around you, to all the people who are living in and surrounding those farms. It's a deep culture. 

Juliane: It absolutely is. Right? That rhythm is a part of it as well. 

Geetie: It creates our society. It creates our communities. Like, the fact that you know and trade with that farmer is really, really valuable. And the bigger those food systems get, the more detached and detached and detached they become. And you're no longer actually looking at food anymore. 

Juliane: Right. Because nobody can really tell you how it's produced or how it's made. 

Geetie: I go into supermarkets — I mean, I have only stepped into the supermarket in town in the 15 years I've lived here... three times. My daughters forced me to. And I find it so shocking. There was no food in there. It's that kind of commoditisation, and it separates you from the land, the people, the ritual — all of these things that you're saying, that create this bigger story. And the joy. 

Juliane: That's such a beautiful transition because you can feel that joy of food here at The Bull Inn. You guys obviously do such a wonderful job in celebrating the provenance of your ingredients and where food comes from. What does that mean to you, to celebrate provenance? 

Geetie: It's provenance of everything, though. It's not just the food. I think about the impact of everything happening. I mean, these flowers are grown on the farm. They're wild, some of them, around our farm — and some of them we cultivate. They don’t last as long, but the impact is really tiny. Like, really tiny. And air-freighted flowers are absolutely shocking. 

It's an intimacy, provenance. It's knowing. It's a relationship. You're connected to the grower, to the producer, to the crafter. And even when, you know, these glasses, I don't know the provenance of those in any great depth. But what I do know is that they're tough, they're long-lasting, and that's what we've chosen. 

Because you can't — we could use recycled glasses, but they would break incredibly quickly and easily. And it’s not worth it, so we've gone for longevity instead. 

But we think through everything we do. We call it the conscious compromise. That is a compromise. This is not a compromise. But then we're very relaxed about it. I’m kind of going off-piste here, now, your question... but we’re very relaxed about it. For example, some of the tables don’t have flowers on them because they do die faster. And you’re better off just having a little bit of something really wonderful and overindulged. 

Juliane: We’ve gotten so used to that abundance. And feeding that last-minute ‘I want it, I need it, I have to have it.’ And we don’t. 

Geetie: Yes. And that’s kind of the starting point. We start with: do we really need it? Like, don’t do it if it’s not wanted. 

It takes the team who work with me a long time to get their head around it because they're used to a system that says, ‘Buy now on Amazon for tomorrow.’ A compromise. Yeah. That we don’t necessarily... it's not very good quality. I’m always drawing this line going, no, we’ll wait. Let’s get something that definitely works, is good quality, has longevity. 

One of the team this summer — we were discussing the umbrellas outside on the terrace out there — and I was going, “I can’t find an ethical umbrella. I can't find one that has the provenance and longevity.” And he said, “Why do we need umbrellas?” And I was like, that’s it. You see? You’ve got it. We don’t. Let’s not do it.  

Juliane: We sometimes say that people go wrong when they tend to think about sustainability as kind of an item on their to-do list — like, oh, then we’ll get to sustainability. And you actually need to think about it as the glasses that you put on when you start your company. 

Geetie: Absolutely. From the very scratch. Because I think if you don’t start a business with that at the core of your thinking, it’s really hard to get everyone to pivot. So, when people join you and you say, “This is how we think, so I want you to think about this when you do it,” then it becomes a whole group, community activity where we’re all contributing to active change. 

I need to say very little anymore. The team is doing it and bringing it and trying it and working it out themselves. Very little is coming from me, other than the agenda. And they know. Therefore, they have mastery, autonomy and great purpose by doing these acts — which is so powerful for people. 

Juliane: Right. To have that purpose, to feel that autonomy in their jobs and to feel that commitment. It’s not only the power of provenance in terms of your ingredients, the power of provenance in terms of every item, but it also empowers your staff to feel a part of that. 

Geetie: When I used to work in other people’s restaurants, I felt incredibly depressed by the fact that all the action was about making money for that person. It wasn’t about thinking about the supplier, it wasn’t particularly thinking about the team, it wasn’t thinking about the impact it was having on the environment. It was just about the profit for the person who owned it. 

And that feels deeply wrong and offensive to me, because business is about people. It’s about people who live in society. It’s about how they live in their families, their homes, their streets. It’s how they work as a community. It’s how we think of each other as businesses in this town. 

When we first opened this pub, there was a wine bar down there and a pub there. So, we went short on the wine list, limited beer on draught, and focused a bit more on cocktails, because that way we were complementing, not absolutely competing with, trade. 

Juliane: I love that. Tell me a little bit more about the ways that you guys engage in that local community and that local economy? 

Geetie: Well, very much we’ve tried to ensure that this is a community pub. It’s very important to have places you can just walk in and drink. That was very hard with COVID to begin with, and we’re kind of getting there now. But first and foremost, the locals are the most important people. Because they’re the ones who make this place. It’s their town. They have an ownership over it. 

I feel, you know, to a certain extent I own this pub, but it’s not like how I own my home. This is a shared building space. It’s ours. It’s all of ours. 

Juliane: Pubs are so important for that — to create those third spaces in communities and gathering spaces — because we’ve lost so many of those over the years. It’s really valuable and it’s essential for meeting people. But it’s also essential for socially responsible drinking, because we hold each other to account in a public space — how we’re feeling, how much we’re drinking. 

Geetie: You’re right. I mean, if we had somebody coming in here every day drinking way too much, the community becomes aware of it and we kind of work together to support. I mean, that’s not always happening, but it does happen. 

And I know that there are other members of the community who will talk to me about different people who seem to be precarious, and we kick in and support each other. 

But also, for the people who are coming to visit us, it’s allowing them to get a sense of this community by being here. And I love sitting here having supper and seeing all the locals — I know a lot of them, they’re very familiar faces — and then the kind of people who are here having supper and the kind of coming together of Londoners and Devon people. 

Juliane: Yeah. There’s a real joy to it. And I can say, from just a couple of days of staying in the pub, you can feel that. Because first of all, we were very impressed with how buzzy it felt on a Tuesday night, you know, a random midweek. And that only comes from having that community and locals that want to dine. 

Geetie: And we also provide spaces to them for — I don’t know, say XR or a book group or the chess club will come. And we just kind of... we’ve got a little shop over the road, and when that’s been empty, we just let people go in and use it. I think that people feel some sense of ownership. Yeah, that was really important. I know obviously employing people locally — well, we employ 54 people here, I think, at the moment. You know, 800 grand in wages. 

Juliane: Yeah, that’s huge. And that directly reinvests back into the people. Because people then have their homes, they have their day-to-day activities. 

Geetie: Absolutely. We invested in a staff house — you know, I’m privileged enough to have that kind of finance behind me, so it’s an easy thing to do. But around that are complexities that you have to look at, because you’re then potentially tying somebody’s job with their home. 

We have to build in very careful contracts around that, that allow them the freedom to continue to live even if they’re not working here. Right? That they feel safe, that they could leave — even under not-great circumstances. But if they’re behaving well in the house and nothing’s happened, there’s no reason why they shouldn’t stay. You know, the kind of nuance built into that is really deep and hard. 

One of my first jobs in a pub — I’ll never forget — they had accommodation and all these travellers would come and work there, and they made them buy all their own linen. And I remember just being absolutely furious with the boss, saying, “This makes no bloody sense. I don’t even want the linen. They’re not going to take it with them.” 

Why can’t you just provide linen? You could charge the tiniest fee for it. But the kind of brutal attitude towards how disposable they were... But I mean, they turned their staff over. We have an incredibly low staff turnover here. It’s absolutely mind-blowing: a lot of the team have been here since the beginning, really. 

And actually, if you go back to my pub in London, which I sold 10 years ago, still loads of my team are there. 

Juliane: I guess building on that — we’ve just talked about how you had your organic pub in London — this commitment to organic as a farming system kind of runs deep. Why? Tell me a little bit about that. And obviously you guys have your farm. How does that play a role in your thinking about the food system?  

Geetie: When anyone in catering is trying to navigate the nuance of the food system they’re trying to support, it’s really, really hard. You know, I hear some chefs talking about how wonderful rapeseed oil is because it’s local, but it’s actually not a wonderful oil. It’s an incredibly polluting oil that requires loads and loads of pesticides. So it’s not really local: you’re importing pesticides from all over the world that have had a phenomenal impact and are actually destroying biodiversity. So really, it’s not good. You’re better off transporting olive oil from Spain. 

But how on earth are chefs or restaurateurs supposed to understand the nuance of that kind of thing? It’s huge. It’s a whole other job. It’s really simple for me because it’s just second nature, it’s how I was brought up. Just black and white for me. But right from the beginning, what I wanted to be able to do was create a restaurant — a pub — that had the systems built into it that allowed for that nuance, so you didn’t have to rely on great information. 

Certification is the obvious thing. If you go to an organic farming system that is certified — like through the Soil Association — they’ve done all the work for you. So you just say, “Chefs, you can only buy organic. You can only buy like this.” It’s really simple. And then you can only buy Fairtrade. And then there are some rules that are laid down. 

I mean, right at the beginning, we were trying not to buy any pulses from China because we saw that the pulse system was collapsing in Italy, so we were like, just stick to Italian pulses. Which did cost more — and they were organic. 

All I have to do is lay down these basic rules. We try and buy veg from Britain, but if you’re following a certification system, they don’t have to do all the due diligence. And then it builds in this local issue that I have a real problem with. 

So many chefs will say, “You know, it’s local.” Well... does that mean that it’s a local wholesaler who lives in the town but buys from all over the world? Does it mean that it’s a local intensive pig farm where they’re indoor-reared and fed GM food? Does it mean that something’s been forced to grow in an area where it’s not happy to grow?  

For example, this area isn’t really a vegetable growing area. You can’t really grow onions here — it doesn’t really work. Whereas on the Fens, they grow really, really well. Here, you’d grow cider apples and beef. That works well. And dairy. If you’re trying to force a food system that’s supplying everything to you locally, you’re actually being really detrimental to the soil and the land. There is something about a transport system and specialising in areas that really matters. 

Juliane: I often think about how the message around food miles somehow really stuck in people’s brains. And in a way, I get inspired by that, because it shows that people can latch onto an idea if you create a campaign that’s simple and strong enough. 

Geetie: People are really committed to the idea that the biggest impact of their food is its food miles. But what we need to do is shift people to understand that actually, the farming system has much more of an impact than the miles it’s transported. Of course, we want responsible transport — we want all of these things. But like you say, you want to farm in the place where it makes sense to farm. 

Like, let’s push for British grown salad. And you’re then having to keep them in glasshouses, and you’re using energy in order to make sure you can have British tomatoes year-round — it’s ridiculous, when you can get beautiful winter tomatoes that are grown in Sicily or somewhere. 

Juliane: Yeah, exactly. And you get a lower impact to bring them over and all of that. It’s so important, isn’t it, to get those messages out and to make sure we’re passing them on to young chefs working in kitchens — and to guests, as they’re dining. It’s a huge amount to learn, but I think it’s something we need to instil in chefs when they’re going to cookery school — it shouldn’t just be about what it tastes like. It should be thinking about what it’s doing, what the impact is. 

Geetie: And I mean, why the hell would a chef not understand the difference between a seasonal and non-seasonal tomato in taste?

Juliane: I mean, that’s the thing, right? Actually, this is so tied to flavour. It’s not just about doing right by the planet — it’s also about creating the most flavourful food. Things that are grown in biodiverse systems have more complexity in them. 

Geetie: But we’ve killed that so much in restaurants. It’s all about efficiency and margin. I mean, the biggest thing that’s been completely screwed is that chefs have been deskilled. But there’s a massive change, and I think we should feel incredibly heartened by it. And as you’re talking, I’m thinking, how much can we expect a chef to understand the difference between an air-freighted and a greenhouse-grown tomato? 

And I do think it’s reasonable, actually. But I also think there should be systems around it — like the Soil Association — that provide you with a chain that’s reliable, so you don’t have to work too hard to understand. 

Juliane: You guys have these noble rules that, in a way, are a framework to operate within. And like you say, that takes away the guesswork, the obligation on a chef to have to come up with their own methods. It gives them something to work within. I think, as humans, we like that, right? We like a framework to operate within. I think that’s really healthy.

Building on that, how do you guys communicate a little bit about those noble rules, or what we’ve just been talking about with provenance? How do you communicate that more widely to your local community or to your guests or diners? What role does that play? 

Geetie: So, it has to start with the team. They have to understand and be embedded in what we’re doing. And what’s really, really interesting is that when I first opened The Duke in ’98, I had to teach everything. I had to explain why a fish policy mattered, what seasonal veg was, why recycling mattered, why compost mattered, what organic was. I mean, it was just mind-blowing how ignorant everyone was. And here we are, heading for 30 years later and all the team get it. I’m not having to teach them this anymore. I mean, like I said, there’s a little bit of nuance we can go deeper into. But how incredibly heartening is that? 

And also, how incredibly depressing is that? The population is educated on these issues, but we haven’t fixed them yet. Our government is doing very, very little about it. And that’s pretty shocking. But it’s also incredibly heartening, because it means we could pivot so fast into a different food system that people understand — if we can get that messaging across. 

We have really good training here. The team has a very deep handbook that explains everything that we’re doing. But like I said, people are so informed, it’s very quick for them to pick it up now. One of the things that I think is really important that we do is we try and make sure that all the team — from chefs to front of house — have a really deep understanding of the menu and the provenance. We do a pre-service brief every evening, and we just do it out here so customers can hear. 

Juliane: I was going to say, I’ve heard the team chatting while I’ve been here, and it’s so lovely to hear — just kind of talking about some of the differences in the menu over the course of the day and evening. It’s really nice. 

Geetie: So they’ll go through the flavours, where everyone can talk about what’s on the menu. But they’ll also talk about the provenance. I mean, most of them know the provenance now, so that doesn’t come up so often. But we really expect the floor team to ask questions about exactly where all the ingredients are coming from, so that we can answer those questions for the customers. 

The other really, really depressing thing is — no one ever asks. No one ever asks anything. I’ve started to think I’m the only person in the world who challenges these places. It’s quite extraordinary. 

Juliane: We were just having a conversation a few weeks ago about coffee supply chains. Big room of restaurants and a few different people that worked in coffee, and we were chatting about supply chains. 

The person who was in Colombia working with farmers said he was speaking to a big London exporter/importer who imports coffee for loads of roasteries, and he said, “You know, Tyler, everybody has copy on their bag about the farmer and some sort of line on their bag saying something about the farmer’s lovely life, or something that alludes to wages.” And he said, “Nobody’s ever asked me what the farmer has been paid. Never once.” And, you know, there’s something missing there in terms of people’s curiosity.  

Like you say, I think there’s a level of education that we all have now. We’ve got access to so much information. But there’s also maybe a lack of depth in our curiosity to go to that next step. We sort of think maybe someone else has thought about that for us. 

Geetie: I think there are two issues going on. One is that we’re overwhelmed by the amount of information and the amount of disinformation that we see. How the hell are we supposed to know? It's really difficult for young people to navigate. Because we’re being bombarded, and so it’s leading us to sort of tick and tack our behaviours. One day meat is the enemy, the next day protein is all you need. And it makes us kind of tick and tack. And what we need is actually consistent, strong commitment to values. 

If you’ve got this strong kind of commitment to values that’s lasted for 30 years, that builds a sort of robust way to live your life. It’s actually how a community is built. This is actually how society functions. 

It becomes so much bigger than just the provenance of the ingredients. Because once you care about that being fair, you start to say, “Well, what about the housing of our employees?” You kind of extrapolate to this bigger system. And that’s how we see positive social change. And there are so many people trying to do it. There are so many people who are absolutely desperate to be able to afford — from their own education, but also from the viability of the business — to do something that is more ethical and that they feel adds value to society. But there is no level playing field. 

We have had the systems that monitored misinformation — actually just bloody truth and lies — decimated over the past 15 years by the previous Tory governments. From the moment they got in, David Cameron slashed Trading Standards by 50%. And it’s been slashed more and more and more since then, so God knows what it’s on now. But when I first opened The Duke, they would come in every year and they would walk in and say, “Prove that, prove that, and prove that.” So we had to prove it was Fairtrade, we had to prove it was organic. And if we couldn’t, we’d be in a lot of trouble. Weights and Measures would come in and bring out their scales and say, “I’m checking all your weighing systems.”

If you were over-pouring, you were putting people in a dangerous situation. If you were under-pouring, you were stealing from them. Every single business I go into now over- and under-pours. People are free-pouring wine all the time — it’s totally illegal. There’s no one monitoring it. Everyone’s lying on their menus — that their lamb is organic, or whatever. It’s local, it’s... you know. So how the hell is anyone supposed to know, unless you’re in the position that we are? 

And I do it because I couldn’t do it any other way. It’s a manic obsession for me, and a lifetime’s work. I want to prove that the world can be different. I was indoctrinated into this. 

I grew up in a commune in the Midlands, and everything we did, we discussed at supper — the morals and ethics of it. And that’s just kind of deeply indoctrinated into me. And I feel so sad for the world. Because it’s so pleasurable, right? When you really master a skill and you really see the positive impact it’s having around you. There’s so much pleasure in it. It’s so fulfilling. 

Juliane: And hospitality fundamentally has that pleasurable aspect. Right? There is nothing more joyful than sitting together with people over beautiful food, and having conversation — or operating quite complex systems. 

Geetie: Yeah. I mean, it’s madness what we do in hospitality: the complexity of it. At the moment, anyone can say all the stuff I’m saying — and no one else can justify it. And customers aren’t asking either. And it’s really, really important that we, as citizens of this country, interrogate this business bullshit that’s thrown at us. 

Juliane: From our perspective — one of the reasons why we do the work we do at Food Made Good and The SRA—is because we feel like there should be a level of interrogation behind people making sustainability claims. 

Geetie: Could you come up with a kind of series of questions that you encourage people to go out and ask other restaurants, as diners? Like a kind of secret shopper campaign around the world, to get people to prove it. And then, could you also — I’ve always wanted to do this — have a kind of anonymous way that you can ‘out’ people’s lies in the public sphere? 

Juliane: I had a situation once where I was with Raymond Blanc, and we were having lunch at a restaurant in London that I won’t name. But we sat at the table and Raymond asked the front-of-house staff where the salmon on the menu was from. And they said they didn’t know — they needed to go ask the chef. 

When they came back, Raymond said, “Did you find out where the salmon was from?” And they said they didn’t. And he said, “Can you go back, please, and ask the chef?” And they went back — I mean, this poor waitress. What was clearly happening was that the chef didn’t know where the salmon was from. And I think Raymond sent her back to the kitchen three times to ask. Didn’t come back with an answer the entire time. And you knew, from the first moment, that we weren’t going to eat the salmon that was being asked about — because they clearly had no idea. 

And this is a respectable high-end restaurant. And they’re probably buying the cheapest salmon. It was a respectable, high-end, high-volume restaurant that’s probably going through a lot of that cheaper salmon that they could do. 

And you know that that poor woman went back to the kitchen — and it’s not like she wouldn’t have said, “It’s Raymond Blanc that’s asking.” You’d think that if anybody in that building had access to the information, they would’ve tried to find it. They clearly didn’t have access to the information to know where their salmon was coming from. 

Geetie: My favourite one was, “Can you tell me where the chicken’s from?” “Yes, I’ll go and check with the chef.” And then they came back and say, “The chicken’s wild.” And my friend just laughed and said, “Sorry?” And she came back again and said, “Yeah, it’s wild. It was shot in the woods.” 

I mean, actually, I think the chef was probably just taking the piss. But they’re endless. They’re absolutely endless, those lies. And it’s very shocking. I mean, I think that this level of needing due diligence for claims that we’re making is essential — whether we’re making claims about our menu, whether we’re making claims about our people and how we treat them, whether we’re making claims about our business practices. An element of due diligence — actually having to show that you’re doing the thing that you said you were doing — is essential. 

Juliane: I think that’s valuable for businesses as well. You know? To have that. It’s not meant to be antagonistic. I think it’s meant to be a valuable exercise — to keep you honest, and to keep you clear on what your priorities are. 

Geetie: It’s valuable to your trade, but it’s also valuable to your own personal fulfilment — to feel you’re actually doing what you said you were doing. And having to strive, and push, and fulfil a bit further because you’re really pushing. But one of the things we haven’t talked about is the marketing value in it. 

I talked about the customers being really educated now in a way that they weren’t before. There’s an active interest in this behaviour. So when you do it, you have to talk about it—and you have to talk about it big and loud. And people really enjoy knowing. Like I said right back at the beginning, when you actually go to a restaurant and you feel that you’re not only eating an absolutely delicious meal (which is so important, of course), but that your money is going towards good change in society: good farming, good employment... customers love it. I mean, almost all our reviews will mention huge compliments on staff and food — and “isn’t it wonderful to know that this business is doing so much good?” 

Juliane: It’s like you were talking about — your role as a business owner and how your pound gets spent, and making sure that you’re being ethical. And it’s equally empowering, like you’re saying, as a human who’s just dining out, to know that you’re ethically making that choice too — where your pound is being spent. if a diner is able to choose a place that aligns with their values, then you know that that meal is a pound well spent. That it has that massive effect. 

Geetie: You feel good about it. Instead of just a little bit compromised. Anyway — we’re going to be launching a course. I’m so excited. It’s the Sustainable Hospitality Course, and we’re going to teach you everything. And it’s really deep and nuanced. For example, I’m deeply alarmed by the use of 'regenerative' all over menus at the moment. It means absolutely nothing. 

Because in a certification scheme, you know there’s someone monitoring it. You can literally put a tree in your field and then call yourself a regenerative farmer. A lot of regenerative farmers are using masses of glyphosate. 

One of the things I want to do is to make sure that people who are coming through our course understand what it means when somebody’s making a claim like that — and know how to question and challenge it. Because I don’t think anyone’s really doing that. You can all come along and join us. 

Juliane: I love it. I love it. 

Watch the full interview here. 

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