Real Talk: Building a More Inclusive, Fair Hospitality Industry

Juliane: Could you introduce yourself to our audience and tell us who you are and all the million things that you do? 

Deano: I’m Deano Moncrieffe. I’m the co-founder of Hacha. We’re in a beautiful site in Bermondsey, and our original site was in Dalston, which opened May 1st, 2019, so we have two venues. I’m also the creator of a cocktail called Mirror Margarita, which is now a standalone brand and has been voted one of the best cocktails in the world. 

Juliane: Amazing. Congratulations on that. I see your lovely face on Saturday Kitchen with your Mirror Margarita sometimes. 

Deano: Yes, doing a little bit of TV stuff occasionally as well, which is cool. I also have a charitable organisation called Equal Measures. 

Juliane: We’re here to talk about treating staff fairly, which is one of the key pillars we focus on. We believe social sustainability often gets left out of conversations about sustainability. Actually, how we treat people — especially in our industry — is fundamental to building better hospitality in the future. 

I know you do a lot of work in this space with Equal Measures, but also just as an owner and someone working in the industry. I’m really interested to hear what your view is on what it’s currently like out there in bars and hospitality. 

Deano: In general, it’s a really tough time in hospitality. We can all be honest about that. We’ve noticed that average spend per head is down in both our venues. Particularly at weekends, it’s a little lower. We’re definitely missing out on the midweek crowd as well, and that impacts your staffing costs and staffing levels. 

It’s hard because you want to employ people full-time, but the three- to four-days-per-week roles are difficult to fill. It’s either two days or five days — very few people want to work three. But now, it would be great if more people did want to work three days. That would help on quieter days when we need to reduce staffing costs. So, there are those little challenges you have to face. Which goes back to what you were saying about treating staff fairly. We want to make sure there’s a solid work-life balance. It often gets overlooked, but it’s so important to enrich your team when they’re not with you as well. Does that make sense? 

Juliane: Absolutely makes sense. Something that’s on my mind constantly, as someone who’s running teams, and the variety of businesses we’re talking to, this sense of what does purposeful work look like and how do we help, especially young people coming into our industry — or people coming in for all sorts of reasons — to build a better picture of hospitality? 

There’s a lot of talk about wanting a better hospitality industry than the one they joined, but no one is quite sure what that means. Especially in these economic times you’re talking about, where you’re juggling two things: to treat your staff fairly and be a great employer, you also have to make the business work. There’s real tension in how you do that. 

Deano: For us, it’s really important that everyone who works with us knows this is the culture we want to create: somewhere you can progress, feel safe, feel like you’re part of a team, part of a community, part of our family. Those are the key pillars: feeling safe and included, knowing you’re respected and everyone is treated equally. 

That’s the first thing I say when someone joins: this is the environment you’re coming into, and hopefully it’s something you’ll find positive. Everything else we do builds from those pillars. Whether that’s regular one-to-one appraisals, sitting down and saying, “What can we do for you? How do we help you progress?”— or, if you don’t want to progress, how can we still make your time here enriching? Maybe you don’t want to become head bartender and are happy doing part-time shifts — that’s totally fine. But I still want it to be enjoyable and meaningful for you. 

Juliane: Absolutely. You’ve pointed to some really key issues. You mentioned safety and creating safe environments, and also progression — how you engage with your teams. 

When we look at hospitality as a whole, we know it’s one of the most diverse workforces, but there are real barriers to progression, particularly for people from underrepresented backgrounds. What do you think those barriers are that are limiting progression in our industry? 

Deano: The key barriers — I faced this in the past — are if you feel marginalised in any way. I had it as a person of colour, where I knew I was not going to progress as quickly as my co-workers, which became really frustrating. 

You’re seeing people progress in different environments and at different rates, a lot faster than you are as an individual. You think, wait a minute, I’m really overqualified to still be in this position. But I’m noticing that people are getting ahead. 

A lot of it comes down to a lack of real understanding of how important diversity is within the workforce and the benefits that can have for you and your business. 

Juliane: These are things I think are really important. The barriers that exist often come from people not investing enough time to understand what it feels like to be from a marginalised group — or to be part of a global majority group — and recognising that experience. That investment and understanding the return on that investment is actually really strong for your business. It’s about building a better business, fundamentally. How do you approach that in conversations, particularly in the work Equal Measures is doing? 

Deano: If you look at most businesses, they’ll have an HR function. The role of HR is essentially to make sure that safeguarding and legal requirements are ticked off. However, what often gets shoehorned in is the “Oh, the DEI policy,” but because it’s not a legal requirement, it tends to get overlooked. It becomes, how much do we actually want to take from this? How much time do we have to give to this? 

The big issue is that policies on inclusivity are not a legal requirement for hospitality. Because of that, HR departments often think, we don’t have time to actually do that, and it’s not seen as important as making sure someone’s grievance is dealt with or that all the legal obligations are covered first.  

I do understand that. But unless inclusivity is placed on the same level of importance, it becomes an issue. As an employer, if you have the option of having a policy in place, you have to make sure you’re truly committed to doing it. If you are committed, the returns will come — because you’ll see the positivity, a better workplace, an increase in sales. And that’s really important for us. 

Juliane: London is a huge, fantastic city, and it’s so diverse. Within hospitality, it’s so important that guests see people who reflect this wonderful — probably the best city in the world, let’s be honest. But that needs to be reflected in the places you go into. 

Deano: I often say that sometimes you walk into a venue, a restaurant or a bar, and if I don’t see a person of colour anywhere, I notice it. Depending on the area — is it Soho? Is it central London? Is it the outer areas? It’s not just people of colour — that’s just what I automatically notice because it resonates with me. But you start to realise they’re missing out on some talent here, because the city around them looks different from the environment inside.  

Juliane: Yeah, and I think that speaks a lot about the space as well — like, are you an inclusive employer? You can see that you’re probably not if everyone in the room looks exactly the same. 

Deano: Exactly. And this is pure coincidence, but in my management team, we’ve got an operations manager, a general manager, and head chefs — all female, and all from a variety of backgrounds. We’ve got South America, Mexico, Australia — just from everywhere. And our workforce is the same. The other day, I was looking around and we had Italian, Indian, Mexican, Jamaican and, of course, people from the UK as well. 

Honestly, the conversations I see the team having with each other are amazing. They’re learning from each other, they’re going to exhibitions they probably never would have gone to and they’re bringing those cultural flavours and influences into the menu. 

I’ll tell you what’s so great as well: sometimes the team will bring in food from their countries to share. They’ll say, “This is a traditional cake we have,” or “This is a traditional dish.” I come in and see it happening, and I think, this is beautiful. It’s so nice because you see the team learning so much from each other and forming really strong relationships. That’s very clear when you walk into our environment — you can see the team really connects with each other. And that makes it easier for our guests to connect with the team. 

Juliane: When you were saying at the beginning, too, about how you enrich your employees’ lives — this is all adding to the richness of their experience in a way that isn’t on paper, like pay or a grievance policy. 

We’ve talked a little bit about HR — or really, just business owners, especially small businesses — needing to prioritise diversity and inclusion from a policy perspective. But you’re pointing to the fact that it needs to live beyond the page. 

A policy is a policy; it can just sit in a drawer. So how do you ensure that it’s living and breathing in your venue? Especially when it comes to recruitment and bringing new people in? When you’re building a team with people from all different backgrounds and experiences, what do you actively look for in recruitment? How do you build that into your processes? 

Deano: The first thing is, you have to understand what it is you’re trying to achieve. What does inclusivity mean to you? I always say to someone, if they’re interested in being more inclusive and having a more diverse workforce, “Explain to me what those two words mean to you.” Then I can help direct you on the right path to make sure your policy is correct. 

Most importantly, you have to be able to measure the success of that policy on a regular basis. Because it’s one thing to have the words: a page or two saying, “This is what it means,” with a bunch of keywords you’re supposed to understand. But what does it mean once you put that policy in place? How is it being checked? Who’s the person responsible for running it? Who’s making sure the team feels there’s value in it? And then, how do you measure that success afterwards? That’s the key thing. 

From a recruitment point of view, I’d be asking myself, “Why do I want a diverse workforce?” Because as soon as you ask that, you start thinking differently. We have a lot of information on our website about this at Equal Measures, with some really good pointers that can help people. That’s the first bit of signposting I do — there are a lot of resources there, and a lot of information I think is really helpful. 

After that, if you’re serious about having the right policy in place, we can help implement it. But it depends on the workforce: the size of the team, where you’re based, the hours people are working. How do we make sure the right policy fits your business? 

Juliane: Yeah, exactly — so it doesn’t disrupt the business, but actually enhances it. And you’ve pointed to this idea of understanding what these words actually mean to you. We talk about this a lot when it comes to the word sustainability. People can throw around “sustainability” or “sustainable” in all sorts of ways, but if you’re not clear on what it means to your business and what principles you’re following, it just becomes jargon. 

Deano: It made me think — recently, I was asked to help make a cocktail competition that’s run globally a little more inclusive. 

My question was, “OK, tell me what that means to you. What’s your starting point? Do you have any data you can share with me about why this is important to you?” And there wasn’t any data. So, I said, “This is the first issue. You need to actually understand exactly what that word means to you.” And also, “How come you haven’t been tracking this up to now?” Because that’s really important. That will help you identify areas for growth. Are you talking to the right communities? Are you building a community? Because you can’t build a community if everyone’s the same. 

Juliane: Especially if you’re trying to have a global conversation — or even just a conversation in London. Nobody looks the same here. 

Deano: Yeah, exactly. My thinking was, if you’re not able to track this, and you haven’t been tracking it, and your whole community looks the same, that means you’re only talking to a certain type of person. Which is why you need to talk to everyone, not just certain individuals. 

Juliane: Yeah. There are subtleties we see over and over again in hospitality. You might say you have a policy somewhere or that you’re trying to address it — but you haven’t realised that every photo on your social media channels looks a certain way, or every photo on your website looks a certain way. And then you have to ask: does that actually represent the community you’re trying to attract? We were talking about women in hospitality — and if every photo of chefs is of a male chef, or every hand holding a cocktail is a man’s hand, then these spaces don’t feel like they’re for women. 

Deano: Yeah, and that’s the thing — it’s so subtle, isn’t it? But it’s about being considerate and actually noticing. Even something as simple as the hand holding the knife and fork or the glass — it all shapes how you’re speaking to potential guests and recruiting new customers. 

I think what’s really important is having training sessions around DEI. And I’d say: is it as important for me to talk to my team about a new cocktail or food item as it is to talk about what kind of working environment we’re trying to create? 

Very often, at the start of a training session, I’ll say, “OK, everyone, we’re going to talk about tequila, mezcal and the new menu that’s coming out, but I also want to make sure the new people joining understand that this is the culture we want.” 

So, I reinforce that again. And that’s sometimes a really nice way to start, saying, “Hopefully you all feel welcome, that you’re treated equally.” And I always remind them: “If you don’t feel that way, you should know you can always come to me anytime if there’s an issue.” And there are individuals in the team that I know I can talk to and say, “Please make sure this is being embedded.” 

Even yesterday is a perfect example. We were short-staffed, and I sent the team a message. I said, “I realise you’re going to be under pressure today because this was unexpected — someone is off, and we’re fully booked. Please remember to work as a team and treat everyone with kindness and respect. You’re going to hit a point when it’s really busy, but remember: kindness, respect and teamwork are what you need to lean on.” 

It’s a simple reminder, but again, that’s reinforcing the culture. It can just be a message sometimes. 

Juliane: This might be a controversial question, but do you feel like it’s getting better? Do you feel like hospitality has improved since you started your career? Because there’s been a lot more conversation about everything from sustainability to work-life balance to diversity, equity, and inclusion. 

Deano: That’s a great question. In certain areas, yes, there has been improvement. In others, I think it’s actually gone backwards a bit. And in some areas, it’s completely stood still. Percentage-wise, I’d say there’s only a small portion that has actually improved. And it’s probably those that have the resources to be able to make bigger changes. 

As a bar operator, I see a little more diversity among our brand partners — the people coming in and having meetings with us. That has changed, which is great. But I also see that it hasn’t changed in the management levels above those individuals who come to see me. And that’s where there’s a big issue — how far is that going? Is there really a progression point? Because there are still a lot of barriers to progression. I don’t know if that part has improved, to be honest. I’m not seeing it. 

Juliane: Yeah, and it’s so interesting, because we’ve been talking about recruitment and about opening the funnel at the bottom — making sure we bring talent in. But we also have to talk about how that talent progresses. How do we diversify boardrooms and open those conversations to make sure that talent is also emerging and pulling through? And the money — like you were just talking about brand partnerships — that’s absolutely fundamental to where the money is flowing. 

Again, something hospitality businesses can be thinking about as part of this conversation on diversity, equity and inclusion: Where does your money go? Who are you supporting? Who are you buying from? Where do your partnerships go? 

Deano: That’s a really valid point. One thing I think is super key, from both a restaurant and bar perspective: a lot of us now have a sustainability statement that we put on our websites. This is our commitment. These are our brand pillars. When we get to a point where next to sustainability is DEI, that’s when we’ll know there’s been a real shift. 

If you go onto a great restaurant or bar website in London, you’ll see the menu, an About Us section that tells a story, maybe a bit about sustainability — and that’s it. 

That’s where it’s missing. And that way, you’d know it’s something important to that business and to that group. I think that’s so important, and I’d love to see that. I think that’s a small step that would go a long way. Because then you’re speaking to your potential guests and consumers, and they understand what you’re trying to achieve. If someone is looking for a job in that company, they’ll see that and think, “Maybe this is somewhere I belong.” 

Juliane: I think that’s the other thing: what are the impacts for businesses when you take a strong, considered, solid approach to diversity, equity and inclusion? That little piece — like you say, it’s a subtle nod, but it opens up a new audience. Whenever you’re looking for your next job, of course you look at their website. Of course you see what their brand is. And you’re missing out on talent if you’re not communicating and sharing your perspective. 

Deano: That’s a really quick fix. And can you imagine the impact if we challenged 100 restaurants around London and the UK to have that policy written on their websites? It could be something we help with, or something we signpost on our website. Have that on there — watch the difference. You’ll see the impact right away. And hopefully it will influence more and more people to do the same. That’s where you’ll start to see positive change. 

Juliane: We’ve talked about some of the positives you’ve seen in your business. Is there anything else, in terms of — well, I know it sounds a bit soulless to talk about return on investment in people. But realistically, businesses are thinking about the return on investment in their people. Whenever HR is involved — learning and development, all that — you’re spending money, and businesses want to know: What’s the return? How do you think about that as an owner, an operator, and a consultant when you’re talking to people through Equal Measures? 

Deano: I’m really mindful of the fact that there’s real concern about the bottom line right now. We have to make sure the economics are in place to be sustainable — at least for us. We need to make sure we have a model that enables us to grow every month. The challenges are that there are fewer people going out, spending is slightly down, like I mentioned before.  

Overall, you have to be mindful that there is a financial reality. Most business operators are thinking about that. Staffing costs are rising, everything is rising. The return on investment you make — it’s about getting as much value from the individual who works with you as you possibly can, by understanding what makes them tick and what their desires are. 

As I mentioned before, if someone came to me and they were overwhelmingly the right person for the job, but they wanted a certain amount more per year, I wouldn’t automatically dismiss it — even if I knew it would be really tight and eat into the profit. If I felt they could deliver something that would enrich the rest of the team, I’d be prepared to do that.  

And that’s the decision you have to look at: what does that individual bring to the rest of the team, not just the guest experience? Can they tick the boxes that are really important to us as a culture? And how does that transfer to the guest experience? Because it all comes back to that — happy guests spend more money. 

Juliane: Yeah. And everything you’re saying — happy staff stay longer in their jobs. One of the things we know about hospitality is that churn is actually one of the biggest costs when it comes to staffing. Retention is the name of the game. The more you can keep your staff on your team — and that comes through all the things you’ve identified: enriching their experience and their lives. It’s about feeling a sense of purpose in your job and an alignment with your employer, which is increasingly important. 

Young people are increasingly reporting that as something fundamental they’re looking for in their life: a job that aligns with their values. And when you can retain people in your hospitality venue, that ends up being a saving over time. 

Deano: Absolutely. And I feel blessed that we’ve had that. We’ve had one person with us since the start — five, five and a half years. We have three of our management team who have been with us for over two years. Another individual has been here for three years. So probably about 50% of our team have been with us for a couple of years or more. 

And that’s really important because they understand the culture. These are the individuals who can help get that message across in a really clear way and identify when something isn’t quite right. I don’t want to say this isn’t the way, but sometimes they’re able to say, “That’s not quite right. That’s not how we do things.” 

And it’s not about judging whether someone’s the right fit, but whether they understand exactly what it means to be part of this family we’re trying to create. So, it’s hugely important. Again, if you have team members who stay with you for a long time, it becomes really important to make sure they’re enriched inside work and outside of work, and that the work-life balance is right. 

It can be simple little things, like if there’s a brand trip coming up, maybe I say, “I’ve done that one already, why don’t you go to it?” Or we often get free tickets to events and things like that. I gave a couple of our team tickets to the BRITs recently, and they loved it. They were really happy. 

So, it’s about sharing those moments — passing opportunities around. That can look different in different types of restaurants and brands, but finding ways to distribute them down through your team can be really powerful, especially for young people coming up in this industry. 

Juliane: Sometimes the media narrative focuses a lot on what’s wrong with hospitality and not enough on how actually amazing hospitality can be for all these diverse experiences. It’s an industry that can provide loads of opportunity if you can get that balance right between work and life. 

Deano: And I think incentives are really cool. We used to have — we should look at doing this again now that I think about it — we used to have staff incentives where whoever performed best at selling, say, X or Y would get a £100 voucher to go visit a partner restaurant nearby. That’s a really nice thing because it gives back to hospitality. Rather than just saying, “Here’s £100,” you’re giving them an experience as well. 

Juliane: Absolutely. That’s something we’ve done too. We’ve done similar things with CODE memberships, as a way to give discounts to your team for going out and eating in other places. What you realise is that, if you work in hospitality, going out to see other venues and how they operate is actually really good for your business. It opens people’s minds, teaches them new things, gives them new ideas. And as a young member of staff, seeing that there’s this cool place you can get 30% off — it’s quite exciting and quite a perk. 

Deano: Because when you work in hospitality, sometimes you can only see your own venue for weeks at a time. Your only experience of being in a restaurant or bar environment is your own place. You don’t get as much perspective. 

It’s obvious — if you go visit somewhere else or have more time to go to another bar, you think, “My goodness, look how great that server is,” or “How amazing that garnish is,” or “That food dish.” All of those thoughts start coming through, and that has a positive impact on individuals when they come back to work.

I really try hard to make sure everyone feels there’s a good balance here. Switching from five days to four days for everyone was a big deal. It works for some and not for others. But I always say to my team, “How many days do you want to work?” If some people say four, I’ll say, “Let’s see how we can make that work.” We have someone now who only wants to work three days, but they’re totally committed and amazing on those three days. 

Juliane: Right. Across all these sustainability conversations, what’s become so apparent to me is how important it is to have these discussions, to build awareness, partnership, solidarity. When you said earlier, especially in the moment we’re in, where it’s really challenging for hospitality and you might need to be flexible with staffing — if you only have a two-day-a-week role — there’s something interesting about whether there’s an opportunity to say, “Maybe someone else in Bermondsey or Dalston needs someone for the other two days.” 

Are there ways to be a bit more dynamic in how we think about the wholeness of a person and the wholeness of an opportunity? 

Deano: Correct. There’s definitely something interesting there. Actually, you’ve just reminded me, there’s an individual who works for us two days a week. He’s studying at university — a really wonderful guy. We had a one-to-one recently, and I said, “How are you? How can I help you?” He said, “I want to be the best I can be at work.” I said, “I think I might promote you.” And he was like, “Okay.”

I said, “Even if you’re only doing two days a week, with that mentality, you should still have progression. It doesn’t mean you can’t be a part-time manager or a part-time head bartender or whatever.” He was so shocked because he didn’t think that was possible just because he was part-time. It’s about recognising, like you said, that it could look different than you thought — maybe it’s two people doing a role together. 

All of this is challenging in the current trading environment. But it just requires a bit of thought and time. 

Juliane: I want to wrap up our conversation — although I could easily talk to you about this for hours, as we have over a cocktail before. 

If you’re projecting into the future, imagining a hospitality industry that’s more inclusive, more diverse, more equitable as a whole, what do you hope to see in five or 10 years’ time? 

Deano: The first thing is what we spoke about — having those DEI policies front and centre. That’s probably the first step in the hiring practice. Making sure it’s something listed in the information about the restaurant or bar. “This is our establishment, this is what we stand for, these are our key pillars.” I’ve mentioned it a few times, but it’s so important, and it should resonate with the individuals looking for work and the guests walking through the door.  

The second thing you mentioned — the boardroom level has to change. There are so many fantastic organisations in hospitality that all look the same once you get to senior management. Unless that change happens, things will stay the same. We need to work hard to make sure progression happens. And there doesn’t need to be fear about this from senior management — “What happens if it’s more diverse and I say the wrong thing?” That fear is part of the problem. It’s going to take some brave decisions, but those decisions will be so rewarding. 

It will enrich the business. It will be better for everyone — for the workforce and for the consumers who will be impacted in such a positive way. That’s what I’d love to see, and I’m really hopeful we’ll get there. 

Juliane: You’re pointing to something so valuable: If we stop viewing this as one pie — and thinking if someone gets a bigger slice, that means I get less — and instead realise that having a more diverse, equitable workforce actually grows the pie. 

That’s the thing people need to stop being afraid of. Building more balance and equity isn’t about taking something away from you — it’s about enriching the experience for everyone. 

Deano: And the final thing I’d say is: Don’t stop learning. Never stop learning. Even if you’re in a senior management position and your business is functioning great and ticking all the boxes, you can still learn.  There will be someone from a different background who can teach you things — not just about business, but about life. That has such a positive impact. Having different experiences is so valuable for all of us as a society — it makes such a big difference. 

Juliane: Huge. That’s the perfect place to end. Conversations like this are hopefully one step toward having more transparent dialogue in our industry — about where we are, what needs to happen and what we believe. Thank you so much for your time. 

Deano: Thank you. I really appreciate it; it’s great to see you. 

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